PART I -- 8.14.99
PART II -- 9.7.99
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PART I -- 8.14.99
I’ve been racing triathlons longer than I’ve been in the bike business, and the trends and theories have always been changing. The one thing that has always made triathlon appealing to many people is the willingness of the athletes to accept and embrace new technology and ideas. This has been a good news/bad news area for manufacturers over the years, but it has always led to better cycling products, better training techniques, and better information for racers to help the sport grow. As a retailer heavily involved in triathlons and time trials, I am constantly asked about how riders can get faster and be more comfortable. We listen to the questions and give our opinions, but we are always looking for trends and the areas that get the most questions asked about them.
It seems the big question these days is this: Where’s the next level of speed coming from?
Do you know ANY triathletes who can pedal 40mph on flat ground for 8-10 miles? I don’t, and I know a bunch of pros and real fast elite age-group racers. I’ve been fortunate enough to work with several top European road teams, including the U.S. Postal squad, and have lately come to realize just how fast these guys can pedal. You hear stories about these guys, but then you go out with the local roadies on a training ride and, gee, they don’t seem all that fast ‘cause they’re drafting on you the whole ride, so… What’s the big secret? Walk around any transition area at almost any triathlon and you’ll see equipment that most of the top pros in Europe never get to ride. We have all embraced the technology of aerodynamics, the intensity of specialized training, the new food supplements, the fast shoe laces—we (myself included) have done everything written in almost every article to try to gain that next level of speed on our bikes. Now it seems, though, that the speed is still eluding most of us. So what’s next?
I’m going to go way out on a limb and say that the next gain in speed is probably going to require you to abandon your steep geometry tri bike and go to this new "Giro" slammed road position. This is even more severe than just back-to-basics cycling—this will require very purposeful training and a dedication to developing technique that is similar to the effort you put into your swimming. How many of us triathletes work on our pedaling technique even 1/10th as much as we do our swim stroke? Sure, we work on strength and speed, but the sacrifice is our cadence and muscle balance.
I got started on this line of thinking for a couple of reasons. One, I could not get comfortable on any tri bike this season. I’ve used Softrides, Litespeeds, Kestrels and a couple of other frames, searching for crotch comfort. I’ve tried every seat I’ve ever heard of looking for that "sweet spot" but had minimal success. I got out an extremely different road bike and tried this position the Euros are starting to use, and it was like I had died and gone to heaven. If nothing else, I got faster because I could at least stay on my bike long enough to train some and get in better shape—but pretty soon I noticed I could pull a harder gear at a higher cadence than I had in years. The second reason was that I have been involved in developing new positions for some ITU Olympic racers, who have to operate under some very different frame geometry guidelines. After developing some new positioning and doing wind tunnel work to be sure we had regained any lost aerodynamics, we would follow the rider’s race results and plot the changes.
It was great to work with world-class athletes, but what was going to happen to regular people who have jobs and limited training time? The first step was to sucker a few locals into this thinking and watch the results. It continued to work. Then I started positioning some Cat. 2 and 3 road racers, along with a few triathletes, and plotted the results. It continued to work. The final step has been to slowly get some of the elite age-groupers and a few pro triathletes to try this positioning. The results still seem to be getting better.
Does this mean I think all steep angle tri bikes are bad? NO. But it does mean that there may be an alternative direction if you’re stuck on one of those speed plateaus and can’t seem to break through it, or if you have a comfort problem that has seemed unsolvable.
There are a couple of issues that have cropped up as we’ve explored this position. First, there is a fine line in the amount of aerodynamic drag you can sacrifice to gain better breathing and more power output. We learned a long time ago that aerobars really work, and if you don’t use them then shame on you. The problem I see is that there are no aero bars on the market that really work well with this new Giro position. That will get solved in a short time, but right now it doesn’t seem to work if you use almost any of the production aero bars available with this seat setup.
What about the big guys (Clydesdales), or racers with non-flexible backs? Well, I am a big guy (225 pounds), and would be proud to eat a doughnut with you. The rear seat position will work great but you have to really, really work on pelvic rotation and practice excellent form. It goes back to that swim training—practice your positioning very specifically as part of your daily ride.
What about those racers who have very inflexible backs? This position most likely won’t work for you, and you should stay with a steeper seat angle. When you are setting your seat position front to rear, run a string from the seat center to the b/b center and actually measure the seat angle. It’s very easy to trick yourself into a 80-plus-degree seat angle, and your hill climbing will suffer greatly for this.
Here’s an easy thing to check if you want to try this different position. Get on your aerobars on your current bike and measure from the ground up to the top of your shoulder. After you set up your new slammed seat position bike, with your hands out on the brake hoods and your forearms pretty horizontal, your shoulder height measurement should be lower than it was on your tri bike. Another key to this setup is that you have to use a very narrow seat or you’ll be having hamstring tightness pretty quickly. Your first ride on this setup will not be much fun—you’ll be using new muscles, but the elusive speed will show up pretty soon.
Just like everyone else, I’m always looking for more speed. I get to use a wind tunnel a lot, so I’m exposed to the harsh reality of aero positioning failure, and I get to quantify aero gains for different body shapes and sizes. There is no right or wrong answer on what’s the best seat angle to use. I just hope to help develop a path to give triathletes a second choice.
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PART II -- 9.7.99
I’ve learned a couple of things in the last couple of weeks: One is that there are a lot of "closet" riders out there who aren’t using forward geometry but are afraid to tell their friends. The other is that a surprising number of people actually read this stuff and will send e-mail about it. One question that seemed to come up the most was this: What are the dimensions that seem to work? I understand that I left some of that out in my first article, but that gave me an opening to write some more at a later date. I’m going to list more numbers here, but realize that this is work in progress and it will continue to evolve through your help by reporting what happens if you try the "slam."
Since my last article I have entered a couple of sprint triathlons and logged about 300 more miles. One thing I noticed was that my running sucked big when I got off the bike, but then again it always feels crummy at the start of the run. I’ve checked with a few of my other racers who are using this setup and they haven’t seemed to suffer any more than usual. I’ve developed some pretty trick aero bars that work well with this position, and I’m riding a new Trico seat that is very, very comfortable. Now I’m even faster because I don’t have to stop and look down in my shorts and try to see what all has fallen off.
Just to check myself out and to revisit Dan’s and my theories on forward geometry bike fit, I built up a Kestrel KM40 with full aero triathlon stuff this week. Loaned it to a customer who has been suffering on a standard road bike for a few years and went out and watched him ride 30-40 miles. This rider is about 50, has a bad back/neck but runs a lot and does triathlons. Marion, the rider, loved the bike/position. He used a Specialized seat, had the elbow pads level with the seat, and went pretty fast. I took it out a few days later. Our seat heights are always the same, but I hated it—my crotch hurt bad, but other than that it felt very familiar with the aero bars being very comfortable. To me this seems to mean that some of us, regardless of size, don’t sit on seats at steep seat angles as well as others. This has been the case all along, but we’re wanting to give you, the athletes, more choices to help get you more comfortable while possibly going faster.
So what about those numbers? I’m starting with the nose of the seat 6cm behind the center of the bottom bracket for riders 5’4"-5’6", then as you get taller I go back some more. On one rider who is 6", his b/b is 7.5cm ahead of the saddle nose; 8cm back is about as far back as we’ve gone so far. Then you have to lower your seat height. We usually use a goneometer (fancy angle tool) and run a 46-50-degree knee bend. I’ve also found that running your cleats more forward on your shoes seems to help. You may have to shorten your stem a little (probably not, if you rotate your hips right) but you should have to reach a little to get your hands on top of your brake levers. Your handlebar height should be about 2-4" below your seat, and your aerobars will go on top of this. Now, don’t forget—if you don’t learn and PRACTICE proper hip rotation, this whole thing won’t work and you’ll be lookin’ for a voodoo doll of me to stick pins in.
I’m not preaching that it’s time for everyone to quit their triathlon bikes: This is just an alternative to help some of us find reasonable comfort so we can go out and do some more races. It’s also a good option to help you break through some of those speed barriers and get to the next level. A side benefit of all this is that if you have a standard road bike you’re trying to race on, I now know how to make some great aero bars that will really work without having to use a reverse seat post. As time and money permits I’ll go back down to the wind tunnel and do more testing on different size riders . In my last set of tests we were able to get exactly the same aerodynamics on our test rider with either a full-blown tri bike or this slammed road bike. We used comparable wheels and special aero bars.
Continue to work on that cadence and get your feet moving faster. Concentrate on hip rotation and learn to spin in a higher (harder) gear than ever before. Your times will start coming down and all this suffering will be worth it.
EDITOR'S POSTSCRIPT: What is espoused by Cobb is not necessarily emblematic of the views Slowtwitch's editorial staff holds.
Having said that, Cobb's piece strikes a nerve, pun absolutely intended. There is not doubt that many riders -- and especially larger riders -- find comfort hard to come by while in the aero position, specifically where they sit on the saddle.
But it is also hard to square the ideas of aerodynamic efficiency and biomechanical advantage with a fit theory that advocates sitting in a rearward position. It would be a misconception, in our view, to say that a rearward saddle position is where Europeans -- as a group -- desire to sit. The two most prolific time-trialers of the last decade, Chris Boardman and Graeme Obree, made mincement of times-race records on bikes with relative seat angles of at least 80-degrees. Boardman recently said these records may stand for a very long time because of UCI rules (not applicable to triathlon) which mandate a somewhat rearward sitting position.
But Cobb's article cannot be ignored, especially when one cannot find ergonomic relief while in an aggressively aero position through the means of a steep seat-angle.
What is left unanswered in Cobb's article is where the arms go; the discussion of cockpit distances; of how aero one can actually get with a laid-back seat; whether kneecap-to-armrest clearance is an issue; and so forth.
But Cobb himself alludes to the fact that this is a work in progress, and admits he is hampered by the lack of manufactured paraphernalia -- such as an appropriate aero bar -- which allows one to easily adopt this position. Perhaps in future Slowtwitch articles Cobb will flesh this out.
Read more about bike fit for the triathlete on our Bike Fit section.
